(ThyBlackMan.com) A few years ago on CNN I heard Franklin Graham say that we all are sinners. His comment reminded me how many people have played into, believed and been deceived by a false doctrine – a doctrine that neither Christ nor the New Covenant nor the New Testament promotes nor supports. That false/flawed doctrine is that “we all are sinners“. Such doctrine is based on faulty reasoning, poor study, misapplication of scripture and a lack of understanding of what makes a born-again Christian who he is (identity).
The idea that you are “a sinner saved by grace” is a man-made deception – not in scripture.
Many people use man‘s reasoning and man’s logic to conclude that “we all are sinners”. This is a big problem and a bigger error because scripture teaches God’s ways are not the ways of man and His thoughts are not the thoughts of the carnal or unlearned (Isaiah 55:8-9). A real Christian must have the mind of Christ (I Corinthians 2:16, Philippians 2:5). And praying, going to “church” every week or giving and good works do not make you a child of God (Ephesians 2:8-9, John 1:12). You must be born again (John3:1-21, 1 Peter 1:22-23).
Pastors, teachers and even seminaries often make the mistake of repeating a lie, deception or error without ever checking to see if it was accurate or not. That is how the lie that “we all are sinners” continues to circulate everywhere. And to say you are “a sinner saved by grace” is very problematic and just plain wrong. Either you are one or the other. If you are saved by grace, you are no longer a sinner. You can no more be both at the same time than you can be a believer and an unbeliever at the same time. As you will see, the differences are so vast that to be both at the same time will not work. Nor is such taught in the Bible. So be very careful of man-made clichés’.
The Bible tells us how to determine who is a real believer and who is not. I John 4:1-5, Matthew 7:15-20, Matthew 13:24-30, Galatians 5:22, Romans 8:14
Man’s reasoning and logic, as he leans to his own understanding, says “if you do something regularly, it must define who you are”. Thus the flawed idea is “if you sin, you must be a sinner” and that “we all sin so we all must be sinners”. But as you will see in this article, God sees, identifies and determines things differently for His children. The New Covenant clearly teaches us that God defines His children by relationship (Psalm 103;14), not by behavior. Furthermore, we must call ourselves what God/Christ calls us (Romans 8:16, Galatians 4:7, II Corinthians 6:18, John 1:12, I Corinthians 1:2, Ephesians 1:1, Philippians 1:1, Colossians 1:2).
Sinners are judged by behavior but children of God are judged by relationship.
So then what are the differences between a child of God who sins and a sinner? There are many differences. Sinners do not go to Heaven. Saints or children of God do go to Heaven because we have an advocate with the Father, because ALL of our sins have been paid for by Christ (II Corinthians 5:21), because our sins are not held against us (Mica 7:18-19, Psalm 103:12, I John 1:9) and because we accept Christ’s payment and sacrifice of himself via his death in exchange for our receipt of eternal life. And eternal life is not just granted until you sin. If it were, it would by definition never be eternal in the first place and we would lose it every week.
Calling yourself what God calls you is your only real identity.
Sinners have no family relationship with God. The Holy Spirit does not dwell in sinners and they have not been adopted into God’s family through the blood of Christ but this is not true for children of God (I Corinthians 6:19 as Paul speaks to believers (I Thessalonians 2:10) at the church of Corinth and I Corinthians 3:16). Sinners have not accepted the sacrifice Christ made to pay their debt so they have to pay it themselves – a debt that required a death as payment. This is not true of God’s children (Romans 8:2). Sinners are therefore condemned to die a spiritual death but children of God in Christ are redeemed, not condemned (Romans 8:1).
Sinners still have their old nature of sin that dominates, rules and controls them but sin does not have dominion over a child of God (Romans 6:6). Nor does a child of God have the sin nature any longer (Ephesians 4:24, Colossians 3:10). Sinners have no inheritance in the Kingdom of Good but children of God have an inheritance (Romans 8:17). A sinner is the same old person they have always been but a child of God is a new person (II Corinthians 5:17). God sees a sinner as blemished and unholy but He sees His children as both holy and unblemished (Ephesians 1:4, Ephesians 4:24). And that is how He deals with us. A child of God is a citizen of Heaven but a sinner is destined for Hell (Philippians 3:20). I could go on but you get the point and the proof is undeniable. There are far too many differences between sinners and children of God for them to be one and the same.
If you are a born-again child of God, you are not a sinner. You will slip, make mistakes, fall short and sin. But that is neither your identity nor your nature. You are simply in an imperfect vessel (the human body / the flesh) which gives in to temptation (Galatians 5:17). You are a spirit with a soul living inside a body and having the human experience, including the human disadvantages (1 Thessalonians 5:23). Yet you need to over stand you are very different from a sinner for the reasons mentioned herein and then some. And for these reasons, new believers often look and act like unbelievers. While salvation occurs in an instant, the process of becoming more and more like Christ (sanctification) takes both time and growth. The Bible clearly speaks for itself on all of this without the need for interpretation.
It is most important that you remember Christ (Yeshua) did not come to help you stop sinning. He came because you could not stop. No human being is free from sin but children of God do not practice a life and nature of that sin. And when we fall, we restore each other, we repent and we realize that we have been forgiven.
Staff Writer; Trevo Craw
A Free Thinker, who loves to talk about Politics, etc. Also, all about uplifting the Black Community even if it doesn’t fit your mindset. One may hit me up at; TrevoCraw@ThyBlackMan.com.
I have always wanted to live in his ‘Kingdom”,it’s my choice. It determined all my actions and responses to anything, I just didn’t realize it. I am still the same peron just older, and wiser and I am grateful for that, because it makes the last days of my life more tolerable..
“…to say you are ‘a sinner saved by grace’ is very problematic and just plain wrong. Either you are one or the other. If you are saved by grace, you are no longer a sinner. You can no more be both at the same time than you can be a believer and an unbeliever at the same time.” Gregory J. DuBois, correct, he defined unbelievers as sinners, but he didn’t define what he means by the use of the word, “sinner.” In other words, it’s not a statement of the meaning of a word itself. “Sinner,” in the English language: a person who transgresses against divine law by committing an immoral act or acts. Christians sometimes sin. So, it seems to be special pleading to define a common term in a way that seems to only refer to one group (unbelievers), whereas it really describes everyone. This is what I meant when I said people need to define terms. And by the way, I don’t think I said that he didn’t, I simply made the statement that definition of terms should be addressed, especially if there seems to be ambiguity in meaning/communication. The way he used the term didn’t make sense, in that everyone sins. If one admits this, then why apply it only to unbelievers, if not then one is probably involved in a false teaching that Christians never sin. Anyway, this is what I was referring to when I said one needs to define terms, whether or not one thinks did that adequately. It’s sort of like trying to make a point, or win an argument, by definition. Once you accept said definition, the argument is over. You must cede to his viewpoint, if you accept the definitional use of the term, sinner. It would be better to define sinner as what is commonly accepted, then argue from there. If you don’t, you are assuming in your definition what you actually have to prove…which is circular reasoning. “The article is more about giving oneself a proper name and then living up to it, rather than resigning oneself to a negative identity that does not encourage growth.” I think the article is all about that, and if that’s the case, then why not speak more directly to that. This presents needless confusion for the reader: “If you are a born-again child of God, you are not a sinner. You will…sin.” Perhaps my point is that it is poorly written. And, your insight about the purpose or intent is spot on. Nice, Greg
Typo: should say, “…but through it all, is what Paul addresses in Col. 3, and other places.
I agree. A Christian is a person who repents through Jesus Christ and does not sin. As soon as he/she willingly sins, they are no longer a Christian until repentance through Jesus Christ can be achieved. How is repentance done? Through prayer and fasting. Prayer and fasting is something that, besides repentance, is not taught in the church.
No. Salvation is not a revolving door, one minute you’re saved, next, not. Say, you are upset about something, lose your temper, and in doing so you sin. Then, according to your viewpoint, you get saved by doing good works, in this case, saying, “I’m sorry.” That’s not the Gospel. Furthermore, nowhere in the Bible does the Lord teach one needs to fast and pray whenever one repents. I don’t know where you are getting that from, Scripture doesn’t teach that. Obviously, praying and fasting are works that Christians can do. But repentance takes place within you, and is God’s grace interacting with your will. Remember to keep Scripture texts in context. If you do that, you will probably avoid most mistakes people make when reading/quoting the Bible. I hope my directness is OK with you…I don’t mean to upset you, Greg
I have to disagree with this article because it too has been brought into the confusion that exists with a wrong narrative. The FACTS are when we are “born again” we are a New Creation or have a New Birth into the kingdom of God. But just Who is born again and exists like that? It is the person living in the body of flesh and blood and bones. We are perfect NOT IN OUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, BUT RATHER, WE ARE PERFECT AND HOLY AND SACRED BECAUSE WE ARE ‘IN CHRIST JESUS’ AND IT IS HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH HAS BEEN IMPUTED TO US. We have a new heart, a new mind, a new spirit, a new soul, BUT WE DO NOT HAVE A NEW BODY OR ANY PART OF THAT BODY WHICH EXISTS CALLED FLESH, BONES, AND BLOOD AND THE DESIRES WHICH COME WITH THAT BODY OF FLESH WHICH ARE DESIRES THAT HUMAN BODIES HAVE TO HAVE TO FUNCTION AND OPERATE ON PLANET EARTH. THOSE FACULTIES OF THE CARNALITY OR BODY CALLED FLESH, HAS TO DIE AND RETURN TO THE DUST OF THE EARTH. IT DOESN’T DO THAT WHEN WE ARE BORN AGAIN, FOR IT IS NOT BORN AGAIN, AND IT DOES NOT OPERATE IN THE SPIRIT AND IN CHRIST JESUS. IT SEEKS TO SIN, TO DO WRONG AND THE EVIL SPIRIT OF SATAN, AND THE LUSTS OF THE WORLD ETC., GO ON EXISTING AND THE NEW CREATION PERSON FIGHTS AGAINST THAT BODY OF FLESH SEEKING TO SIN, AS WELL AS THE HOLY SPIRIT WHOM WE ARE IN DOING THE SAME. HOWEVER, GOD ALLOWS THAT BODY OF FLESH TO FAIL MANY TIMES, TO TEACH US AND DISCIPLINE US AND SHOW US WE NEED THE SAVIOR STILL TODAY, FOR WE DO SIN IN THAT SENSE! WE ARE CLASSIFIED AS SINNERS OR WICKED ONES, BUT RATHER SAINTS OF GOD WHO WERE SINNERS AND SAINTS OF GOD WHO STILL MANY TIMES EVERYDAY FAIL AND SIN IN THE FLESH, BUT GOD COVERS THOSE SINS DUE TO HIS JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH BORN AGAIN EXPERIENCE PLACING US IN CHRIST JESUS THE HOLY ONE. SO THAT DICHOTAMY EXISTS. SO WE MUST LIVE WITH IT. PERFECT TOTALLY COMES WHEN THE BORN-AGAIN SPIRIT FILLED AND CHANGED ENTIRE NEW PERSON SAVED UNITS WITH THE RESURRECTED BODY OF FLESH WHICH WILL COME LATER. UNTIL THEN THE BODY LIVING PRESENTLY ON EARTH IS SINFUL IN THAT IT HOUSES SIN, AND THAT SIN, DOES WORK ITS WAY OUT MANY TIMES, AND WHEN IT DIES OUR NEW PERSON LEAVES THAT BODY OF SIN, GOES INTO HEAVEN WITH JESUS AND WE ARE GIVEN A SPIRITUAL BODY UNTIL THE RESURRECTION OF OUR OLD BODY TAKES PLACE ATTHE END OF THE END TIMES WHEN HE COMES BACK. So, we use the terms perhaps many times wrongly (that is the term sinner(s)but we are really ARE saints, sons of God, children of God, holy people, as God sees us in Christ, but we certainly do not display perfection in our fallen bodies which have NOT changed one bit after the New Birth. Only the Inner Person is saved and perfect as it is HOUSED or SHELTERED in Christ Jesus and His holiness. Work out through the Spirit of Christ holy good deeds etc., takes place, but ONLY if in the Spirit is such considered holy. Our fallenness when it functions, and controls things is sinful and puts out sin not holy things. We gain strength in time over that fallen body of flesh with sin in it, but NEVER perfection until it is re-united to the “new birthed child of God that we are” takes place later at the Resurrection. That is the good news because we need a Savior because we even see as Saints something is still wrong in our daily lives because we do not do right totally and perfectly in all activities, we engage in at all. Anyone that says we do are not living in reality nor are they realizing the truth of God as HE has taught us. In fact, we see in everyone alive today, not only lost sinners, but saved people who are living NOT PERFECT in every aspect of their lives!!! So, sin does function in saints’ lives for check out: Abraham, David, Solomon, Samson, Paul, Peter, Mark, saints in 7 Churches found listed in Revelation, James’ writing in his epistle to the saints, etc.! IF they sinned and they were saints and they were redeemed by the blood of the lamb of God also, even though HE was to come later to cut that covenant for them in the future, as ours is in the past, then certainly we too sin even as they did. Sorry to rain on your parade but that is the truth, and anything otherwise is not doctrinally sound teachings and causes divisions and also causing many insecurities, and fear and depression etc.! For NO one can measure up the LAW or 10 Commandments and that includes the church members who are really saved by Grace. NO ONE does that at all. It is Jesus ONLY who DID that and imputed it to our account!! He paid the price fully for me!! I can’t pay it and I can’t measure up to the LAW even today.
Sinners are described as people who Sin. That is we commit acts that are against God’s policies. Even though I’m a born-again Christian. I still consider myself a Sinner. Yes most of my sins are covered by the blood of Christ but I still sin sometimes on a daily basis. If you are not a sinner then you are God or Jesus Christ himself, the only man who has not sinned.
I read with interest all the theology that tries to prove the article wrong. Some even claim that the author did not define his terms. But he did. Sinners are unbelievers who are not related to Christ by faith. Saints are believers who are related to Christ by faith, and we do well to praise God and celebrate that wonderful identity as children of God, even though in our behavior we also still sin. That’s all in the article that I read. Those who are objecting seem to be focused on that one line without carefully reading the whole articled. So, they miss the real point of the article.
The article does mention that saints do still sin. So, the article is not about trying to claim that “Christians are not sinners” means that they do perfectly obey everything that God commands. The article is more about giving oneself a proper name and then living up to it, rather than resigning oneself to a negative identity that does not encourage growth.
How is it that we so called Christians can divide up into thousands of different sects, take information out of the same source, come up with all sorts of float able doctrines, and still all claim that we are following the Word of God? Why is it that we Christians can follow the same God-forsaken rituals when we meet without ever noticing that they are at odds with the Bible? How is it that many of us can blithely embrace church practices and theological beliefs that are not rooted in Scriptural principle, yet read them back into the Bible? Men hold that not only is the Scripture the Word of God, but every bit of it is the Word of God in and of itself – irrespective of context. This sets the stage for the idea that if we lift a verse out of the Bible, it is true in its own right and can be used to prove a doctrine or a practice. This half-baked approach still lives in our Seminaries, Bible Colleges, Churches, and Bible studies today. Most Christians are completely out of touch with the social and historical events that lay behind the Bible. Instead, they have turned the Bible into a manual that can be wielded to prove any point. As a result, we Christians rarely, if ever, get to see the Bible as a whole. Rather, we are served up a dish of fragmented thoughts that are drawn together by means of fallen human logic. The fruit of this approach is that we have strayed far from God’s Way. Yet we still believe we are being Biblical.
You are totally right, and we have to admit honestly and seriously that we are all sinners who have to repent all our lives for our sins to be forgiven. That is why there are confessions and then communion with Christ’s blood and flesh after the liturgy. I am an Orthodox Christian and everybody who is a real Orthodox believer never thinks that he/she is not a sinner. So, all Christians are sinners, but we are on the right path and with a great struggle to reach the Eternal life.
I take exception with what the article proclaims. The author goes out of the way to include various scriptures, seemingly, to atest to his hypothesis. This tactic is a feable attempt to quantify and qualify himself as some sort of right wing theological guru, when, in fact, he is totally misguided. Explain, if you can, the following scripture, from the New International Version(NIV): Romans 3:23, (“for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God…”). It goes on to say in verse 24 (“and are justified freelyby his grace through the redemption that came by Jesus Christ.”) What you claim is not in the scriptures, in fact, is. Furthermore, for Christians to believe thay are not sinners, allows them to give themselves a pass and collect two hundred dollars when they do commit a sin. Show me a Christian who says he doesn’t sin, and I;ll show you a blastfeeming lier.
II Corinthians 5:10 “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” I guess Paul the Apostle lied when he wrote this. I am so glad that you have corrected him. Maybe you can explain to me what “the deeds done in the body is? I understand what the “BEAMA SEAT IS” Christians are not condemned there only rewarded for what they have done for Christ. We have had a spiritual birth, God gave up on the flesh in the garden of Eden. The fesh is sinful not the Spiritual birth God put in us. God see’s his children differently then he see’s the lost man still in his sins. If you are talking about how God see’s and deals with us a children then I will agree. If you are saying Christians still do not sin then you need to get back in your own Bible and study. Romans 7_19-25 “19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.” RAY
When my children were born, I could not look at either of them, fresh from Heaven, and believe they were born sinners. I do not believe that of myself. Even as a child, I have always felt a connection with God which dictated my actions. I was never prone to murder, kill or destroy anyone. And my heart breaks when I think about Jesus’ sacrifice, and there are so-called Christians who sin. As the author has defended, sinners are determined by their actions, and children of God are determined by their relationship and faith. Are we born perfect? I would like to think so. But do we “live” perfectly?..absolutely not. Christians put God in a tiny human box, and as I continue to study and grow in my relationship with Him, I am being pulled further and further away from Christian ideology as it is taught. The mere idea that a person can commit vile, disgusting acts on another person and confess their sins and receive forgiveness, grace, and mercy the same as someone who actively tries to do right and may miss the mark in minor ways by comparison …is not the God I serve. I am not living my Christian faith to get my reward in Heaven only. I am expecting my reward right here on Earth from my Lord’s promises.
Thank you for this article. It is very well presented.
This idea leads to heretical thinking. I stand on two verses.
In John 1:8 – If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
In 1 Timothy 1:15 – Paul says, “I am” (present tense) a sinner. That was quoted in earlier comments and a central truth of the bible.
I will provide my correction to your thinking. You are a sinner, but no one born of God, YHWH makes a practice of sinning. Your relationship with him changes your thinking, makes you a ‘Follower’ of Christ.
Are egotism, grandiosity, chauvinism, self-righteousness, and narcissism “sins”? Then all “true” christians are sinners – in fact, they are the worst kind of sinners. Humble atheists are the least of sinners, using the same criteria. Hell is not a place. Hell is people. Like christians, et al.
Lol.
It is quite obvious that even after baptism,( Born Again, ) we continue to sin. I’ve never met a “perfect” person. To be sinless would to be free from all sin. Our salvation is a ” process” that continues throughout one’s life. St Paul makes this struggle of sin inj our lives in Rom 7-8. Even after we ” died and become ” new creations in Christ, Rom 6:1, we still continue to live in a fallen nature. That is why Christ provides us His Grace, through the Sacraments, prayer, and relationship would you want to be perfect without being humble and grateful? Your sins give you the opportunity to be perfected by repentance and humility and gratitude. There is no excuse for your sins; indeed that is the point, because if there were, forgiveness would be simply just a transaction. There is mercy for your sins, and that is the only thing on which we can rely if we hope to be saved now or in the end.p.
The tern sinner, when applied to the saint, is used in the epistles to refer to what one was prior to conversion (“while we were yet sinners”), or to call one to needed change (“cleanse your hands ye sinners”). To use the word sinner to express something that believers are just to accept as their normal identity eliminates the call for repentance and responsibility to change. Do we sin? Yes, but when we use such a term as a badge of honor to prove our humility, we only reveal our continual refusal to change.
Colossians 4:5-6
Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time.…
The wheels of nature are not made to roll backward; everything presses on towards eternity; from the birth of time, an impetuous current has set in, which bears all the sons of men towards that interminable ocean. Meanwhile, heaven is attracting to itself whatever is congenial to its nature, is enriching itself by the spoils of earth, and collecting within its capacious bosom whatever is pure, permanent, and Divine, leaving nothing for the last fire to consume but the objects and the slaves of concupiscence; while everything which grace has prepared and beautified shall be gathered, from the ruins of the world, to adorn the eternal city, “which hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it; for the glory of God doth enlighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.” Let us obey the voice that calls us thither, let us seek the things that are above, and no longer cleave to a world which must shortly perish, and which we must shortly quit, while we neglect to prepare for that in which we are invited to dwell for ever.
(Robert Hall.)
Christians do sin. I fully understand imputed righteousness and God’s perspective of our position in Christ. I fully understand that all sin was factored in on the cross. And I am fully aware of the process of sanctification, as well as our part in cooperation His Spirit working in us (purifying ourselves: 1 Jn. 3:3). And I also understand the distinction between saints, and them that perish (1 Cor. 1:18).
But none of that negates the fact that Christians, like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David – do sin. And if we sin, what does that make us, besides the fact of God’s perspective in Christ?
Two verses for consideration: 2nd Timothy 1:15, James 4:8.
And one for a warning: 1st John 1:10
I think you mean 1 Timothy 1:15.
I was thinking the same thing: Paul says, “I am” (present tense) a sinner.
It used to be that fringe teachings remained fringe, but today in America and other places that which used to be fringe has become accepted in a much wider scale. I could say a lot, but suffice it to focus on a few suggestions. Define terms. You use the word, sinner, without defining what you mean by it in your communication. Furthermore, texts quoted have their meanings in the context which you find them. Most people ignore textual context, and therefore misuse Scriptural texts. We all have a sinful nature. Paul spoke of that, and the entire Bible displays that. This will not change until we die, then we will receive glorified bodies as per the completion of our salvation. Salvation is described in all senses, past, present, and future. Until it is completed, we are told to live in the new life given to us…and the NT is full of encouragements and commands to do so. You can see this play out in Paul’s correcting and admonishing Christians to stop sinning. He was speaking to Christians, not unBelievers. More could be said, but I have read the article and comments, and my advice is don’t think you have something “new” and “improved” for America. America is in full rebellion against the Lord. We are going from bad to worse, and simply not mentioning our sins is not going to be helpful. Paul mentioned his, and we too should be honest about ourselves and one another as well. That being said, we are saved by grace through faith. We cannot work our way to forgiveness and heaven. That’s the whole point of Christ dying for us, in our place. And if a person believes, then there will be fruit in his/her life that testifies of said salvation. I’m going to leave it at that. I have been a Christian all of my adult life, since 1976, when I choose to believe, and therefore become a follower/disciple of Jesus Christ, who is God become flesh in the incarnation. -Greg
Amen to Greg I totally agree.
It’s called imputed righteousness, Rom 4 read and study it.
This article starts out with a total blatant lie saying that a sinner saved by grace is not in the Bible. What does Eph. 2: 1-9 (paraphrase) say, and you were dead in your trespasses and sins in which you formerly walked, but God being rich in mercy, GRACE, made us alive with Christ. Eph 2:8 By grace you have been saved! There is a lot more that could be said here. Christians are still Sinners, but our sins are covered by the blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for the one who is trusting in Christ for the forgiveness of sins. God looks at the believer through his Son Jesus Christ and declares us RIGHTOUS!
I like Gregs response
Thank you, Sonshinebilly. Colossians 3:1-17 gives us a great perspective of the Christian life. When I talk to others about sin, I often explain that it is a Greek word, an archery term, meaning, “to miss the mark.” The mark is the target. This so well describes human nature, and history. Obviously, more could be said of how we tend to miss the mark in life, in both moral and amoral ways. But the point you make is “imputed righteousness,” and that’s wonderful. No one can be righteous before God, on his/her own, and at the same time have a sinful nature, a nature that misses the target of the Lord’s will. Even the history of the world, as per the Bible, shows how humanity is never in right standing with the Lord. And even when the Lord Himself becomes a man in the incarnation, well, look at the history of the Church, and Christians, great and small down through the ages. Some of that can be placed on wolves in sheep’s clothing, and belief in false teachings, but in through it all is what Paul addressed in Col. 3, and other places. Anyway, again, thank you for the comment, Greg
Typo: should say, “…but in through it all, is what Paul addresses in Col. 3, and other places.
Agreed. The author never defines the term “sinner.” Is it our basic identity? Then no, we aren’t sinners. Is it one who sins? Then yes, we are.
Thank you, Gary Rickard. It seems quite often today people talk past one another, especially relating to controversial topics, partly because they don’t really listen to the other person and/or they don’t communicate well themselves. Hence, I try to slow the conversation down, ask questions, and communicate clearly. I think little to nothing is gained by miscommunication between people, and as everyone is made in the image and likeness of the Lord, they are worth talking with, whether or not agreement is reached on any specific points. And so now, I want to thank you for the comment…isn’t it refreshing to try to live a lifestyle of grace and truth? Best, Greg
Greg. Who did God send to Earth? His only begotten son, or Himself? Yes there are several verses which seem to point towards Jesus being God but then one can take verses out of the Bible and prove that it is OK for one to kill themselves also!
Paul Roberts, it is later here, and I must make this short (after 1am). You seem to not understand the doctrine of the Trinity. This applies to your question,”Who did God send to Earth? His only begotten son, or Himself?” There is only one true and living God, creator and sustainer of all things. And in that one God there are three separate persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Hence The Father sent the Son, in the incarnation, two persons in the one God. When Jesus Christ was raised from the dead, the New Testament says that the Father raised Jesus up, the Holy Spirit raised Jesus up, and Jesus also said that He will raise Himself up from the grave. The NT has many such references to support the teaching of the Trinity, of Jesus Christ being God yet also being a separate person from the Father. Before the incarnation He was known as the “Word” (John 1). You may not understand this, nor accept it, but this is what the text of the New Testament presents, in context. Groups or cults like the Jehovah’s Witnesses constantly take Scripture out of context, and anyone can play that game, to try to get the Bible to say whatever they want it to say. Most errors people make relating to the Bible is pretty simple, they ignore context. I hope this answers your question. I have to go, Greg
HalleluYAH! Praise YAH!
~ Psalm 150:6 ~
The servants of Sovereign YAHUEH Most High, the followers of Messiah YAHUSHA of Natsaret are free – sinless and guiltless – washed clean in the blood of YAH’s Lamb.
Exo 20:3 ~ Idolatry is sin.
All partakers of religion partake in idolatry. Christianity is the religion professed by the Whore of Babel (the bishop of Rome).
Christianity is founded upon idolatry. Jesus (EA Zeus); cross (Tammuz); Christmas (Nimrod); Easter (Ishtar); church (Circe); God (Gad); Lord (Baal)l Lord God (Baal Gad); sun day worship (Baal worship).
Christians are BIG sinners.
There is no deliverance in Jesus (EA Zeus), the reason Christians die diseased.
How old is the English language? Did the Messiah of Natsaret speak English (Acts 26:14)? When was the letter J added to the English language? How old is the name Jesus (Acts 4:12)?
The names Jesus and James were introduced into English translations with the publication of the 1638 KJV. The mother of James I was Mary, Queen of Scots. The mother of Messiah YAHUSHA of Natsaret was Miryam, a Hebrew of the tribe of Yehudah.
The called out/body/bride of Messiah YAHUSHA of Natsaret are the 144,000. They alone are sealed with the pure Spirit of Sovereign YAHUEH against the three-and-a-half-year Great Tribulation (Rev 9:4) – the blowing of Sovereign YAHUEH’s seven trumpets.
Come out of lies and deception (Rev 18:4).
Love, Light, Laughter, and Prosperity…
Nonsense. The names “Jesus” and “James” existed in English long before the KJV. They are English versions of the Greek names (beginning with iota), which are different from the Hebrew names (beginning with yod). That’s how languages are.
sin does not have dominion over a child of God (Romans 6:6). Nor does a child of God have a sinful nature any longer (Ephesians 4:24, Colossians 3:10).
The New Covenant clearly teaches us that God defines His children by relationship (Psalm 103;14), not by behavior.
There is just so much to understand. What I have come to learn is that believing is not the answer, only doing as Jesus did…what are the three things he did on the Mountain?
And the story of the whipping he gave to the greedy merchants in the Temple could be a parable where the Temple is each of us and each of us must manage our desires.
And did not Jesus say that he who conquers their own self is greater than he who conquers a city? What does that mean to us?
To follow Christ is to 100% follow him but Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised Land…why? And King David could not build a Temple for G-d but his son would do it because David had too much blood on his hands. So, did he enter Heaven you think when even he could not sacrifice to G-d to build a temple to relate to him?
And Ananais & Sapphira were killed for holding back some of the profit to give to the Church and lying about it…but could this also be a parable that to follow Him requires 100%, for how else could we “be ye more perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect”? And the killing was due to their hypocrisy in saying they did give 100% when they did not.
I am of the opinion that simply believing doesn’t get us anywhere. Only in doing what Jesus did: 1. destroy the egos of desire 2. to be born again 3. to sacrifice for humanity. It is the born-again part that concerns me because I do not think saying I believe is enough. There must be a higher bar than that.
Respectfully submitted and with high hopes of dialogue!
Evans Babitt
While faith without works is dead (James 2), our works do not bring us eternal life.
You wrote: “What I have come to learn is that believing is not the answer, only doing as Jesus did…what are the three things he did on the Mountain?”
However, I would like to point out several verses, though I think a reading of the books of John and Romans would help a lot. The book of Galatians is a short read and directly on this topic.
(All verses from NIV)
John 20:30-31
30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Now, eternal life is not just about living forever. God is the source of all goodness and life, and so knowing Him and being with Him is real life. Jesus said the following in John 17:3:
3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
1 John 5:11-13
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
And it is not just the Apostle John who writes this way about faith. Paul does as well.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Romans 3:21-25
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.
Peter writes in 1 Peter 1:8-9:
8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
There are many, many more verses about this topic.
You wrote “I am of the opinion that simply believing doesn’t get us anywhere. Only in doing what Jesus did: 1. destroy the egos of desire 2. to be born again 3. to sacrifice for humanity. It is the born-again part that concerns me because I do not think saying I believe is enough. There must be a higher bar than that.”
That is the beauty of the gospel. There is no higher bar than believing in Jesus. He wants us to be with Him, and He did what was necessary to make that happen. We do not have the power to do good in God’s sight without the Holy Spirit’s help (Isaiah 64:6 – All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.). Even with the Holy Spirit, we still sin. (See Romans 7, though some say that Paul is speaking as a non-Christian there. However, I think the best reading is that Paul is speaking of his Christian experience).
Concerning works (or a higher bar), Romans 4 continues the discussion from the bit of Romans 3 I quoted above:
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Paul scolded the Galatian church because they started to think that works mattered.
Galatians 1:6-7
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all.
Galatians 2:14-16
14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
Galatians 3:1-9
1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
Now, I emphasized faith and grace in these quotes. However, this does not mean that we can just live however we want. If we do that, I think we show that we do not really love God and are not really His. Being saved is not about avoiding hell. Salvation is about finding ourselves in a good relationship with our good God. We will be guided by His Holy Spirit to sin less, and we will be doing good works. However, these works do not save us or add to our salvation.
I am happy to talk more with you about these things. I hope that my response was useful.
Nicely put, Dallas. For the Christian, works come from faith. The Lord calls us to good works, not to be saved, but because we are saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-10). “‘I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.'” It’s the Lord’s grace that saves us, and produces fruit of good works in our lives. The history of the church throughout the ages is filled with those who have done fleshly, carnal, and/or destructive “good works” for the Lord, such as the Crusades. The Lord is not the originator of such things. They come from false teachings and/or from wolves in sheep’s clothing. So, it is important to understand we need the Lord to not only save us, but to produce good works that are according to His will. I am sure you know all this, but I wanted to add this to what you said. In other words, our hope is in Him, in this life and in eternity. The Lord’s good works will come from saving faith, as grapes from vines. And that saving faith is personal, relational, and biblical –not the unbiblical faith of those in the nonChristian religions and cults who believe in another Jesus and gospel of works (which is no gospel at all). God bless you, Greg
Evans Babitt, I could respond to various things you said, but instead, suffice it to say, you believe in a “different gospel” which is no gospel at all. Your gospel is faith plus works: “What I have come to learn is that believing is not the answer, only doing as Jesus did.” This is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Also, if something is not given as a parable, then it is not a parable. Thinking it is doesn’t make it so. You are interpreting some texts by reading into it one’s own ideas (eisegesis), and/or not paying attention to the contexts. I am sure you are sincere, but no, patterning your behavior by the New Testament does not save you, nor help save you, nor keep you saved. ” For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do” (Eph. 2:8-10). -Greg
A further elaboration to my response, if you don’t mind:
I am sure you are sincere, but no, patterning your behavior by the New Testament does not save you, nor help save you, nor keep you saved. Jesus saves you, if you place your faith in Him, personally, relationally. It is not an impersonal assertion disguised, like saying, “I believe the moon exists.”
If you believe in the Lord, you will have good works. In fact, the Lord Himself had that in mind even before you came to faith in Him, preparing the way for you to do good works, to pattern your behavior by the New Testament. But, make no mistake about it, works cannot save you, only the Lord can, by grace through faith in Him.
I’ve been making the same point for years, to little avail. We are called Saints in the New Testament, never sinners. So much of what the “Evangelical” church teaches and practices is wrong, but no one seems to care.
I always tell people to be careful of anyone bringing “new” revelation into the Christian faith. Occasionally, one may need to adjust oneself to the culture around him/her, as time changes. But the Gospel is the same, throughout time, from Acts to the 2nd Coming of Christ. So I say to you also, be careful… American churches today are politicized, as are every institution in our culture. I assume you are from America. And so here is an example of being careful to adjust oneself and not get caught up in the political corrosiveness of said influence. The US (and Western Civilization) is going through a great rebellion against the Lord, and embracing hedonism. That’s really too bad. If there is no repentance, there will be great weeping, and everyone will be affected. Anyway, I agree that believers are called saints, Christians, etc. And so I do also. Paul spoke of a struggle within himself regarding sin. And we do also, from time to time, until we shed our mortal bodies, and are given a glorified body. There is no one perfect, except the Lord, even after being saved by grace through faith. No Christian is perfect. Only the Lord is. Read all of the letters Paul wrote to the churches, to Christians, not to unbelievers. This applies to us as well. -Greg